How to Navigate Physical Pain: From Medicine to Mind, Body to Spirit l S2E099

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You're going to learn about how to understand , your

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physical pain, managing this pain,

and communicating with your pain.

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Because when you realize and hold

space for the realization that you're

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not defined by the pain that's going

through your body and that your pain

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is more effective when you tune in.

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Rather than tune out and push it away,

and it doesn't mean that you're damaged.

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And so my guest today is a repeat

guest and she's also a dear friend

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and her name is Jackie Morgan.

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She is a psychologist with a master's

degree and has spent the last six years

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working in a private practice and at.

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Psychiatric care facility.

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She has an interest in couples

therapy and the influence of

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attachment styles on relationships

and functioning within the workplace.

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Jackie and her husband moved

to Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada.

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That's how I met her.

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And she's been there

with us for two years.

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She's come all the way from Johannesburg,

South Africa, and she continues to

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consult with her South African clients

online and looks forward to opening

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an in-person practice in Owen sound as

well, and living with chronic back pain.

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Jackie shares with us what she has

found helpful along her pain journey.

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So welcome Jackie.

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Welcome back to A Call for Love, and

I wanna say you were on episode 52

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when you had newly arrived in Canada

and we discussed embracing change.

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So welcome back.

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Thank

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Speaker 2: you.

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Wow.

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Yes.

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That was.

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A long time ago.

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Um, what feels like a long time

ago, and you know, what can be so

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similar to that is our experience

and our journeys with pain.

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Because although I've only lived

with chronic pain for the last

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three years, it's a relatively.

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Short history, but it feels

like the longest journey.

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And so yeah, just a voice of encouragement

to all your listeners today, Linda, that

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no matter if you've had pain for the last

few months or years, it feels long because

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it really is testing, it is trying, and

I feel like I can connect with that.

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And I've come a long way in my journey,

but I still have a long way to go.

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So I hope that I can share some

of my insights with you today.

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Speaker: Yeah, I think

it's really important.

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I know that pain can just influence

every area of your life, your sleeping,

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your eating, your, your relationships,

and how you relate to your body

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and your self, and it's relentless.

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Speaker 2: Hmm, absolutely.

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It's all consuming.

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Um, it, and it's complex and, you know,

there's this, uh, favorite saying of

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mine from CS Lewis regarding pain.

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He says, we can ignore even, but

pain insists upon being attended to.

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And, and that for me just describes

so beautifully how pain arrests

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our attention every day, all.

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And so it, it can erode parts

of your life and relationships,

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even your, even your work life.

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I think it would be remiss of us to not

mention identity loss, uh, that one can go

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through when it comes to a pain journey.

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Speaker: Yeah, I think that.

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What you're saying is

pain is all consuming.

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You can't ignore it.

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It's in your face and it's so

this is the journey, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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When you are faced with something that

is here in your life, for better or for

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worse, what are you gonna do about it?

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Speaker 2: Mm mm Exactly that.

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As with all misfortunes, it can bring

out the worst or the best in us.

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And, and so this has really been my

personal experience with Pain two.

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Um, yeah, it really is a deeply

personal journey, so there isn't a

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one size fits all, and, and I'm by

no means an expert on the subject.

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I just hope to be really be sharing

my personal lived experience with you.

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And so I, I just wanted to

mention to everybody that.

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It has been confusing at times along

the way with all the different types

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of interventions that there are

out there, but that not any single

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one of them I would safely say

that I could do, have done without.

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Uh, I, I honestly can see the

benefit of having gone through.

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All the layers and of all the dimensions

because as pain infiltrates our lives

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on many dimensions, so it is with the

interventions that we need to consider.

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So another encouragement just for people

to keep learning about their pain and

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keep trying to understand what there

is available for them out there to do

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to alleviate some of their suffering.

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Speaker: All right.

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Why don't you just give a brief

explanation of what pain you've

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gone through, and then we're going

to discuss how you have begun to

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understand the concept of pain in

your physical body and managing it.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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So I have lower back pain.

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It's due to a bulging disc, which

is incredibly common around L four,

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L five, S one, s two, around that

region due to various reasons, whether

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it's the aging process or actual

injury or a combination of, of both.

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Uh, I experience a lot

of pain in my lower back.

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It has confused me at times when I've

looked at images of my MRI and gone.

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Wow, that's not a bad looking MRI,

you know, so it's, it's difficult

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to understand that what you see on

an X-ray is not equal to what you're

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experiencing per se in your body.

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That my experience of pain is different

to somebody else's experiences of pain.

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Mm-hmm.

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My physiotherapists tell me that

some patients have terrible x-rays

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or MRIs and experience no pain.

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But for me, I know that every day,

at several times during the day,

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my pain stops me from doing the

activities that I would like to do.

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And it also inhibits me from doing

some of the sporting activities

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that I used to be able to do and

that I still hope to be able to do.

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Um, and so there is, uh, a real

tendency to want to have to.

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To want to sit back and, and try to

manage pain by not doing anything

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because of that fear response.

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But what I've had to do is

go, wow, no matter what I do.

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Or how little I do, my

pain stays the same.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Speaker 2: And so it's caused me to

have it, it's caused me to really

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dig down into what it is that I'm

experiencing and to talk to different

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medical professionals and to reach out

to different resources out there, uh,

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to be able to understand it a whole lot

better and come at it from a new angle.

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So this is some of what

I'll be sharing with you.

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Speaker: I agree.

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The thing about pain is you look fine.

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So people can't see underneath

what you're experiencing, and that

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becomes a challenge because you look

fine, but you're not feeling well.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: A hundred percent.

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And, and also to be a, a younger person

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Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: With invisible pain.

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And people say, but you're too

young to be experiencing that.

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It, it also, I think, just throws you into

another category of feeling very isolated.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Speaker 2: Um, and, and that people

can't really identify with you.

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And, and that's the danger in the mental

health field is that people will feel

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isolation, that they'll start to feel

hopeless, um, and start to feel like

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they don't know which way to turn.

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I think that's the risk with pain.

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It really does erode your mental health.

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So we, we need to speak about pain

and we need to speak about all its

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different tactics so that we can

claim some of that victory back

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and some of that control back.

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Speaker: That's so fascinating because

I think that it's a double end sword.

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What happens is, is you're experiencing

the pain and you want to, um.

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Not completely identify yourself

as pain, but explaining to others

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that you're experiencing pain,

you're almost reinforcing the pain.

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Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't

have said it any better.

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Um, I remember that at that

there just was a time when all my

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conversations would lead with how

I was doing in my pain journey.

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Um, and I both needed people to

ask me how I was doing, but I also

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didn't wanna be defined by it.

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So there was that real point of

tension and conflict within me that

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needed to be seen, but that also

wanted to remain invisible so that I

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could continue to live a normal life.

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So it really is, uh, a, a, a tricky

double-edged sword like you say.

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Yes, there's so much more to us

than our pain and, and so much

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more to our bodies than, than the

experience of pain within them.

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And so I would just like us to try and

claim some of that real estate back,

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some of that emotional real estate back.

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Speaker: That's our first point.

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You are not defined by your pain,

but what do you do so that you're

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not defined by it, even though

you're experiencing it acutely?

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

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So I think the first, the first

quiver in your bur should be that

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there is an understanding of pain

that has to be had with, with all.

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Challenges that we meet a, a

firm understanding of something

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is half the battle one.

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And so what I wanna just explain

today is that pain is a result

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of many different factors.

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It is not one plus one equals two per se,

and that pain does not equate to damage.

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But that pain is something that your body.

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Send signals from your pain receptors,

which are your, your nociceptors.

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Whether there is a pressure or a burning

or a chemical threat on your body,

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those chemical signals are sent via your

spinal cord up to your brain for your

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brain to then receive that signal and.

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Anticipate some kind of a threat and

then initiate a protective response.

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So that's

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Speaker: a physiological response to pain.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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It's physiological and.

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The two other mechanisms that, that

there are is an an emotional component.

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So your emotional part of your brain

then receives those signals that have

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been interpreted and further goes on to

process and say, well, let's think about

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how we process this in our fear centers

of our brain and in our, um, centers of.

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Appraising it.

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Do we like it or don't we, you

know, all those judgment zones.

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So all of that is handled in the Amy,

the, um, emotional centers of our

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brain and, and then cognitively our

frontal lobe comes online and says.

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Speaker 3: Hmm,

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Speaker 2: well, what should we

pay attention to now and how do we

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further interpret this information

and how do we contextualize it

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and, and how do we make decisions

based on this incoming information?

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And so there's, there's the

conversation that's happening

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between all those three points.

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And so this is why I'm so pleased to have

come across that thoughts and emotions.

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It can directly influence

how we perceive pain.

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So pain is a physiological response.

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The pain is real.

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I'm not saying it's not, it definitely is.

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I know it is.

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But there is also a perception Yes.

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Zone that's happening at the same time.

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And that is where we can intercept

this very unhelpful pain cycle.

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And so that's, that's

where we'll go to next.

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Is how to intersect at those points.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Turning into your pain as

opposed to pushing it away.

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Correct.

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Yes.

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Speaker 2: I think the real temptation

for me was to try and use distraction

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as a technique because I didn't know

what else to do along my journey.

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Um, and distraction can work up

to a certain point and it can

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be helpful in some situations.

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But it doesn't last for very long.

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And so what I needed to do was

find a way of working with my pain

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because distraction inherently had

something quite resentful about

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it, or even repressing about it.

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And it, it introduced

conflict within my own body.

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There was a split in my mind

in how I could be present.

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And so I needed to try something

different, and so I started to tune

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into my pain and exercise certain

pain management techniques that way.

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And that was tremendously helpful

because then what I found was that I

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was intercepting those factors that

involve the immune system and the

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nervous system's response to pain.

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And so.

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Even if you hear something during your day

or smell something, taste something, touch

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it, something that you hear, something

that you do, something that you believe,

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um, people in your life, anything can

set your, your nervous system on edge

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and it can start to create something

of an inflammatory process, which can

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tell your brain that there is a threat.

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Your brain is gonna fire off these pain

signals into various parts of your body.

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You become infused with them.

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So as I started experimenting

with meditative techniques on pain

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management, I found that I could

calm my entire nervous system down.

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Um, another way that I, I got a bit of

distance from my pain was to think of it.

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A voice, so still a voice within me,

but there's still a little bit of

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distance was to ask pain that if it

were to be able to tell me something

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now, what would it be telling me?

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Speaker: Oh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it, it, it's helpful

because then, um, you know, at

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times pain would be saying to me,

uh, that I need to have a boundary.

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Somebody, perhaps there's something

that I didn't really want to be doing

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or something that I felt I couldn't

really be saying, um, that I would

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then ask this very helpful voice.

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I was starting to use pain as a signal to

me for protection, which is what pain was

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invented for, was there to keep us alive.

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And it still is, but it's been

misinterpreted along the way.

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And sometimes along the way we get so

used to the pain that we've developed,

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habits of feeling our pain, connecting

with our pain, and coping with our pain.

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And so we entrench old neural

systems, neural pathways within us.

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That keeps us going along, what

can sometimes be very unhelpful

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ways of dealing with it.

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You know, for instance,

just turning to medication.

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Uh, and I'm, I'm not advocating for

turning away from medication because we

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know, uh, that medication is medically

appropriate as, uh, a course of treatment

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sometimes for a, for a person's lifetime,

sometimes just for the acute stage.

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But we also have to be

mindful of its effects on us.

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And, and how and when we use it and

it, it, it's got to be prescriptive and

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it's got to be, um, managed responsibly.

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Speaker: Well, I think we're, when

we're in the throes of deep pain,

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certainly that's the time for, you

know, that intervention of medicine.

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I do wanna share though, that, I mean,

I've been fortunate I haven't had a

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lot of pain in my life, but when I do.

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I do seek a doctor's opinion and

possibly medicine if it requires it.

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And then I also go the psychological

and the spiritual route.

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I, I would be amiss not to mention

that Louise Hay has the book.

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You can Hear Your Life.

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So for every part of the body that kind

of breaks down, she says emotionally what

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it's connected to on an energetic sense.

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And so I would, in my circumstances,

um, very simple, very little example.

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I had a style in my eye

and, uh, so I got the drops.

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This is not a huge thing, but it's

just an example and I looked in

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Louise Hayes book and it's like.

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What are you seeing?

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What are you perceiving in your life?

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So then I did both.

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Mm-hmm.

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I did the soulful work, the

energetic work, and then I did the,

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the conventional medical route.

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

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Interesting.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Um, and, and I think the more that

we can become more melted dimensional

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in our approach to illness and

pain, the better often and the more

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balance we achieve through doing.

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So, I don't think there's any one of

those dimensions that, that we should

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minimize or discredit because I think

they're all incredibly valid and helpful.

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So this, you know, usually I, I don't know

that I would've turned to a meditative

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source, uh, outside of something as robust

as our biomedical model, which I, I can't

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do without, but it touched, it touched a

nerve that the biomedical model couldn't.

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For instance, it just went somewhere

else in my body that my medication wasn't

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doing for me and still isn't doing for me.

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And so I'm finding that that balance

between taking, taking pain management

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meds and doing other mindfulness

meditation practices and continuing

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with moving my body and exercising,

because I noticed that not moving.

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Leads to other problems.

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Yes.

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Not moving creates it, its own pain.

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Um, and, and so I'm trying to do a

little bit of, of everything that's

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helpful, including consulting with

a pain coach from South Africa.

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And, and so there's a little piece

of advice that comes either from a

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family member who's had pain, like

my, my, my cousin in the states.

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Who can share some of her gold nuggets

with me, or it's my physiotherapist,

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or it's my pain coach, or it's my

neuro, you know, I've got a whole

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team of people that are helping

me to manage what I'm experiencing

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in my body and it's all helping.

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Speaker: Yeah, and I, I think

what you said is very important.

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I went to Sri Lanka and some healers,

Ayurvedic practitioners work on my

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physical body at frozen shoulder.

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That was like debilitating pain.

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But anyways, uh, they said the doctors

had told them to stop moving, like,

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stop playing golf, stop playing tennis.

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: 00:21:06

And um, I almost feel like that hurts us.

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: 00:21:11

Of course, we cannot do those same things

to the same degree, but even as a yoga

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: 00:21:17

teacher doing one 20th of it and just

even feeling a little bit into your body.

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: 00:21:25

Is really good for, for your

psychological wellbeing too.

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: 00:21:30

And, and it does bring energy because

if, if you think about our energy

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: 00:21:35

system, we could have stuck dis-ease.

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: 00:21:39

It's, it's the, the energy's not

flowing well and a bulging disc.

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: 00:21:43

'cause you said the energy is not going

up and down your spine really well.

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: 00:21:48

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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: 00:21:49

And, and what you're saying

there is the, um, the helpful and

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: 00:21:54

beneficial release of brain chemicals

that we get when we exercise.

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: 00:22:00

And so they are really, uh, really

important for our overall wellbeing.

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: 00:22:05

And there's all, there's also

something quite psychologically

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: 00:22:08

positive that happens once we've moved

our bodies and we've survived it.

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: 00:22:14

We bank on a victory.

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: 00:22:16

That goes into a little bit of an

unconscious memory that, oh, we

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: 00:22:20

are not broken and our bodies are

inherently strong, and that there is.

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: 00:22:26

A wisdom about our bodies that

knows what it needs to heal and

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: 00:22:32

moving is part of that healing.

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: 00:22:34

And we come back to ourselves and

we also find enjoyment in our bodies

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: 00:22:39

again, because paint takes so much

away from us and our enjoyment of

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: 00:22:44

our daily lives and our bodies,

and, and so exercising in a graded.

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: 00:22:49

Activity, fashion can really

help you to take those little

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: 00:22:53

steps back to that victory.

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: 00:22:56

Um, and, and my physiotherapist, I

could not have done this without him.

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: 00:23:00

He helped me to see and to look back

and go, Ooh, three months ago we were

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: 00:23:06

only walking for 10 minutes and now

we're up to walking for 45 and this

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: 00:23:13

time in a few weeks time, we'll be here.

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: 00:23:15

And so having those goals

and walking with somebody.

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: 00:23:19

Um, to babysit you, if you like for

a better word, because otherwise, you

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: 00:23:24

know, one might be tempted to do too

much too soon or to not do enough.

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: 00:23:28

So depending on your personality

profile, it's really helpful to,

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: 00:23:33

to be with somebody who knows

what they're talking about.

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: 00:23:37

Speaker: Yes, this is a beautiful

conversation because we've

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: 00:23:40

come to the circle that pain

does not mean we're damaged.

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: 00:23:44

And I, I'd like to add one more thing.

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: 00:23:46

I was.

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: 00:23:48

In Cuba and a barracuda bit through

my foot, sliced through my big toe.

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: 00:23:54

And um, it was a very big mess

and they were stitching my toe

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: 00:24:01

and I placed my hand on my heart.

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: 00:24:03

I said, okay.

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: 00:24:05

My heart, my spirit, the love I have for

the people around me and for life is not

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: 00:24:11

in pain, is not hurt, is not damaged.

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: 00:24:14

It's my body.

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: 00:24:16

I kind of created a little bit of a

separation and I was like nurturing,

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: 00:24:21

and I kind of talked to my body.

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: 00:24:23

I said, you know, you are really hurt.

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: 00:24:25

They're taking care of you.

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: 00:24:26

They're stitching you up,

but you're okay inside.

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: 00:24:30

And I had this conversation and I

could kind of separate the two, and

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: 00:24:33

it really, really helped when I was

in the midst of this fully conscious,

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: 00:24:39

watching all the stitches and the blood.

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: 00:24:41

And so I found that

really, really helpful.

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: 00:24:44

Nice.

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: 00:24:46

Speaker 2: So what you said there

is so good because there's that

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: 00:24:48

self-compassion that we've got

to have when we are experiencing

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: 00:24:52

pain or something frightening.

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: 00:24:54

Um, and then there's the ability to

slightly separate or buffer yourself.

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: 00:25:00

From your feeling self so that we can

still think about our feeling selves and

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: 00:25:05

then we become observers of our pain.

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: 00:25:08

Speaker 3: Yes.

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: 00:25:08

Speaker 2: Not saying that the pain

is not part of us because it's so

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: 00:25:12

intricately part of us, um, but we,

we can then allow this pain in its

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: 00:25:20

own way to talk to us, which helps us

further our acceptance of that pain.

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: 00:25:29

So when we can notice whether it's a

burning or an aching or a stinging,

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: 00:25:35

whether it's um, flittering around

or whether it's stabbing, uh, you

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: 00:25:41

know, when we just allow ourselves

to notice something without judging

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: 00:25:47

the pain and where it's coming

from and blaming ourselves or that

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: 00:25:51

car accident or whatever it was to

cause it, we just kind of go into.

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: 00:25:56

The, the body's process of this

pain, and then we can welcome

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: 00:26:02

it by saying, well, it just is.

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: 00:26:05

Mm-hmm.

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: 00:26:06

And it's interesting to note that it's

in that leg and not the other leg.

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: 00:26:11

And if we take a part of our bodies

that isn't experiencing a pain and

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: 00:26:16

we notice how that's feeling, our

brain starts to interpret not only

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: 00:26:21

just what negative feels like,

but also what positive feels like.

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: 00:26:24

Yes.

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: 00:26:25

Speaker: Which is so healing.

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: 00:26:26

Speaker 2: That's so healing.

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: 00:26:28

And then to mindfully place something

soothing, whether it's cooling or

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: 00:26:33

warming onto that injured area,

sending it a lot of love and care

385

: 00:26:39

just like you did in that moment.

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: 00:26:41

You know, you surround it with,

with yourself, um, around reminding

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: 00:26:47

yourself that you don't need to feel

overwhelmed by the pain, but that you

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: 00:26:52

can be with your pain, but that it is.

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: 00:26:55

Not

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: 00:26:56

Speaker: you because

this is a call for love.

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: 00:26:58

I can say the Buddha said that suffering

is caused by pushing away or grasping,

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: 00:27:05

but when we hold space for it, which

is an awareness without judgment,

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: 00:27:11

it's being heard, and so the pain is

being heard and you don't identify

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: 00:27:16

it as your whole self being damaged.

395

: 00:27:23

It's just the experience you're

going through in the moment,

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: 00:27:26

Speaker 2: it's part of you and it,

and it doesn't have to overwhelm you.

397

: 00:27:29

Yeah.

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: 00:27:30

And I've noticed that, that when I take

the stance with my pain, that it reduces.

399

: 00:27:37

Speaker: Yes.

400

: 00:27:38

Speaker 2: And you know, other management,

uh, techniques that I still engage in

401

: 00:27:43

are things like grading my level of pain.

402

: 00:27:49

Um, and grading my activities for the day.

403

: 00:27:52

So if doing laundry is, is a five

and I'll run through what the pain

404

: 00:27:58

rating scale is, um, but if I say

that doing laundry is a five, 'cause

405

: 00:28:05

by the end I feel that level of pain.

406

: 00:28:09

I know that I can't combine two or three

level five worth activities Oh, I see.

407

: 00:28:14

On the same day.

408

: 00:28:15

Um, and, and so that helps me to

take some control back and it, it

409

: 00:28:20

also helps me to really work with

myself and not against myself.

410

: 00:28:27

Speaker: It's kind of like a bank

account you don't wanna overspend.

411

: 00:28:30

Yes.

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: 00:28:31

When you're thinking of how much pain

and how much effort in one day when

413

: 00:28:36

you're saying grading, uh, a 10, you

don't wanna overspend because then

414

: 00:28:41

your body is going to not be happy and

you probably will pay the next day.

415

: 00:28:47

Speaker 2: Yeah.

416

: 00:28:48

Yes.

417

: 00:28:49

You can't overspend, you always pay

the price the next day, and so you've

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: 00:28:55

gotta be quite calculated and think

about your activities and wonder

419

: 00:28:58

what it is that it's gonna cost you.

420

: 00:29:01

But I wanna balance that again

with what I said earlier on,

421

: 00:29:04

that there is a cost to also.

422

: 00:29:07

Doing and not mobilizing.

423

: 00:29:09

Yes.

424

: 00:29:09

And not building your

confidence back in your body.

425

: 00:29:14

Speaker: Well, you don't wanna

be too stingy in life and you

426

: 00:29:17

don't wanna be too frivolous.

427

: 00:29:19

So it's the same thing with your pain.

428

: 00:29:22

You want to continue to move your body.

429

: 00:29:26

I personally believe we're energy

bodies and I, I know that even, okay.

430

: 00:29:33

Say I'm having pain in.

431

: 00:29:35

My hand, my arm, my shoulder.

432

: 00:29:37

Well, my legs are okay, so I can

move a little bit of my legs.

433

: 00:29:40

I'm still moving my body,

I'm still shifting my energy.

434

: 00:29:44

I'm still relating to it

and getting those successes.

435

: 00:29:48

And that's what makes the difference.

436

: 00:29:50

Yes.

437

: 00:29:51

Yeah.

438

: 00:29:52

Speaker 2: And, and there are so many

helpful resources through medical

439

: 00:29:55

professionals and, and also, uh, available

out there, um, you know, bioness and.

440

: 00:30:02

Sports physiatrists that can help you

to think about how best to mobilize

441

: 00:30:08

and continue to build strength while

still protecting that injured area.

442

: 00:30:13

So, you know, with backs it's always a

good idea to improve your core, um, legs,

443

: 00:30:19

arms, everything around that because

you've still gotta pick up grocery

444

: 00:30:23

parcels and you, you, you know, you

still got to clean your house and, and.

445

: 00:30:28

Drive your car and do all

the things that you wanna do.

446

: 00:30:31

So there's just so much that you

can do, and the stronger you feel

447

: 00:30:36

in general, the better you, your,

your area of vulnerability feels,

448

: 00:30:42

the better you support yourself.

449

: 00:30:44

Um.

450

: 00:30:45

Then I think just lastly, in terms of

communicating one's pain, I found it

451

: 00:30:50

incredibly difficult to help myself

and to help others to understand one

452

: 00:30:56

bad day from one good day, you know,

because it's so fluctuating and we all

453

: 00:31:01

have good days and bad days with pain.

454

: 00:31:03

Um, I would use words like, today is not

a good day, is not a good back day, but.

455

: 00:31:10

More than that, I needed

to give it a number.

456

: 00:31:12

And so the pain rating scale is

quite helpful also when talking

457

: 00:31:15

to medical professionals.

458

: 00:31:17

Yes.

459

: 00:31:17

That if you can say to them that,

no, I'm on zero pain with no pain at

460

: 00:31:22

all, or I am on a 10 that I cannot

think right now, I'm in so much pain.

461

: 00:31:30

So I encourage everyone just to go and

have a look at that pain rating scale

462

: 00:31:33

and then to work out activities for the

day based on that and to work within it.

463

: 00:31:39

In always shapes and forms.

464

: 00:31:42

Speaker: Yeah, that's beautiful.

465

: 00:31:43

When we work within it,

we're honoring our body.

466

: 00:31:47

We're honoring the moment that we're

in, and then we can hold space for it.

467

: 00:31:53

Know that we're not damaged, we're

just, just in the mode of healing.

468

: 00:31:59

Instead of sick, I like to

think that we're healing.

469

: 00:32:02

It's a progression, and then

we can hold space for it.

470

: 00:32:06

So I really thank you for joining a

call for love and sharing about the pain

471

: 00:32:12

body because we're going to have pain in

and out through our life and navigating

472

: 00:32:19

through it and learning those tips

can make that journey a lot smoother.

473

: 00:32:25

Thank you.

474

: 00:32:25

Yes.

475

: 00:32:26

All the best.

476

: 00:32:27

Yeah.

477

: 00:32:27

Thank you, Jackie.

478

: 00:32:28

So thank you for listening, everyone.

479

: 00:32:30

You can reach out to Jackie.

480

: 00:32:32

I have her links in the show notes,

and just wishing everyone peace and

481

: 00:32:38

pain-free living from my heart to yours.

482

: 00:32:41

Namaste.